[TheBlackCloudUpAhead]

Yeah the more you look it to it, the more you get serious question marks abotu Fidelmans involvement in this.


I can't pretend to be an expert, but I am more than savvy in recording, mixing and mastering through training at an audio college/ work experience in a studio.

As far as I have learned and experienced, if the final mix doest clip you really have to do something fucking insane in the mastering phase for it to sound like that. As all you are doing is basically turning up a well-levelled mix. You have to turn it up at crazy levels to make that clip.

The more I listen and the more we dig, it really does sound like the mix was done and Greg sat down at the mixing console and pushed all the faders up a few notches before he finalised it, pushing the noise to unstable levels. The mastering would then amplified (no pun intended :P) the problem, essentially adding volume to an already too loud mix, causing digital clipping.

This post has been edited by TheBlackCloudUpAhead: Oct 08 08 - 06:28 AM

[MatsP]

TheBlackCloudUpAhead, on 10/08/08 03:27 pm, said:

Yeah the more you look it to it, the more you get serious question marks abotu Fidelmans involvement in this.


I can't pretend to be an expert, but I am more than savvy in recording, mixing and mastering through training at an audio college/ work experience in a studio.

As far as I have learned and experienced, if the final mix doest clip you really have to do something fucking insane in the mastering phase for it to sound like that. As all you are doing is basically turning up a well-levelled mix. You have to turn it up at crazy levels to make that clip.

The more I listen and the more we dig, it really does sound like the mix was done and Greg sat down at the mixing console and pushed all the faders up a few notches before he finalised it, pushing the noise to unstable levels. The mastering would then amplified (no pun intended :P) the problem, essentially adding volume to an already too loud mix, causing digital clipping.

Maybe that's the scenario. One thing that's a fact is that there is clipping on the album that shouldn't be there. It's a technical error. I can't for my life understand how they would want an album to clip deliberately.

[SiriuslyCold]

why don't we all read the Wiki for a bit.

http://en.wikipedia....vel_compression

otherwise it'll be the blind reading the blind

I know it's probably not the best resource, but the alternative is to dive into audio engineering text. At least the Wiki will help us get a basic understanding of what we're trying to discuss.

If you have any questions, you can ask Ian Shepherd (!) :D

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 03:31 pm, said:

why don't we all read the Wiki for a bit.

http://en.wikipedia....vel_compression

otherwise it'll be the blind reading the blind

I know it's probably not the best resource, but the alternative is to dive into audio engineering text. At least the Wiki will help us get a basic understanding of what we're trying to discuss.

If you have any questions, you can ask Ian Shepherd (!) :D

He knows a great deal of stuff, but he still isn't willing to admit that clipping is bad for your speakers. I've had some personal correspondence with him about this. Anyway, he has written some great articles.

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 10:33 pm, said:

He knows a great deal of stuff, but he still isn't willing to admit that clipping is bad for your speakers. I've had some personal correspondence with him about this. Anyway, he has written some great articles.

that's because digital clipping in the signal isn't dangerous for the speakers by itself. If you play DM at 50db SPL it isn't logical to say that the sound will damage your speakers, even though there are a lot of clipped signals all over the place.

Can you spend some time to see what I wrote for uncleNoob at JFA? second last post on first page in this thread

This post has been edited by SiriuslyCold: Oct 08 08 - 06:48 AM

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 03:39 pm, said:

that's because digital clipping in the signal isn't dangerous for the speakers by itself. If you play DM at 50db SPL it isn't logical to say that the sound will damage your speakers.

Can you spend some time to see what I wrote for uncleNoob at JFA? second last post in this thread

A square wave isn't good for any speaker. May I refer you to the same article as i did with him?

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

[redthahat]

As promised, here are the wave forms for a handful of Death Magnetic tracks. These are the waveforms from the Mission Metallica MP3 set, untouched and unedited. These are exactly as they came. This shows that this record has been pushed way to far. This is not how we should make records in 2008!!


My Apocalypse

The Judas Kiss (my personal favourite!!)

All Nightmare Long

Broken Beat and Scarred

That Was Just Your Life

The Day That Never Comes


It never truly hits you until you see these, it is incredible how much they compressed and limited these songs.

Take a good look at the Judas Kiss. It is a solid blue brick!! If there was a 'Rubin' award, it would definately go to to this song!!!

[Jules Mischief]

redthahat, on 10/08/08 06:49 am, said:

The Judas Kiss (my personal favourite!!)

*sigh*

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 10:41 pm, said:

A square wave isn't good for any speaker. May I refer you to the same article as i did with him?

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

yes I've seen it.

"When an amplifier is pushed that hard, it is actually possible to drive the speaker with twice as much power as the amplifier can cleanly produce into the speaker. As you can see below, the yellow sine wave is the maximum 'clean' output that the amp can produce. When an amplifier is pushed way too hard, the signal will eventually look like the white line. The effective voltage of the white line is ~1.414 x the yellow line. This means the the total power driven into the speaker by the clipped (square wave) signal is double the power delivered by the 'clean' signal (yellow line)."

He is talking about the amplifier clipping because its being pushed way too hard, not because it is being given a clipped signal. He even gives you a clipped signal to show what it sounds like - playing that won't damage your speakers unless you push your amplifier to play it really really loud.

If you play it at a decent volume, within the capabilities of your amplifier, the clipped audio won't harm your speakers.

If you play it too loud ... anything that can cause the amplifer to clip can damage speakers (it doesn't have to be a clipped input signal)

see here, too

This post has been edited by SiriuslyCold: Oct 08 08 - 07:08 AM

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:04 pm, said:

yes I've seen it.

"When an amplifier is pushed that hard, it is actually possible to drive the speaker with twice as much power as the amplifier can cleanly produce into the speaker. As you can see below, the yellow sine wave is the maximum 'clean' output that the amp can produce. When an amplifier is pushed way too hard, the signal will eventually look like the white line. The effective voltage of the white line is ~1.414 x the yellow line. This means the the total power driven into the speaker by the clipped (square wave) signal is double the power delivered by the 'clean' signal (yellow line)."

He is talking about the amplifier clipping because its being pushed way too hard, not because it is being given a clipped signal. He even gives you a clipped signal to show what it sounds like - playing that won't damage your speakers unless you push your amplifier to play it really really loud.

If you play it at a decent volume, within the capabilities of your amplifier, the clipped audio won't harm your speakers.

If you play it too loud ... anything that can cause the amplifer to clip can damage speakers (it doesn't have to be a clipped input signal)

Not, it talks about a square waveform having a much higher average power than a sinusoidal one. That's why it relates to the digital clipping on DM as well. Of course, it won't be harmful if you keep the volume down enough, but it will still demand more of the speakers.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 08 08 - 07:08 AM

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 11:07 pm, said:

Not, it talks about a square waveform having a much higher average power than a sinusoidal one. That's why it relates to the digital clipping on DM as well. Of course, it won't be harmful if you keep the volume down enough, but it will still demand more of the speakers.

yes but its the waveform that goes out of the amplifier to the speaker, not the signal that's going into the amplifier.

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:13 pm, said:

yes but its the waveform that goes out of the amplifier to the speaker, not the signal that's going into the amplifier.

It's the same thing, with the digital clipping actually being even harsher, and even more harmful. The speakers don't care about where the waveform is generated.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 08 08 - 07:17 AM

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 11:14 pm, said:

It's the same thing, with the digital clipping actually being even harsher, and even more harmful.

The author has an email address at the bottom of the page. If you want to email him let me know I will PM you my email address so I can be copied?

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:17 pm, said:

The author has an email address at the bottom of the page. If you want to email him let me know I will PM you my email address so I can be copied?

Hm? Sorry, I don't get you.

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 11:20 pm, said:

Hm? Sorry, I don't get you.

let's ask him the question - obviously I don't have any technical grounds to convince you - I assume the writer of that webpage can clarify matters for us.

so let's send him an email -

In light of the current trends in recording where CD audio levels are pushed to clipping, will playing the CD harm the amplifier or speakers? Essentially, when the amplifier is fed with a clipped signal, does it harm the speakers?

This post has been edited by SiriuslyCold: Oct 08 08 - 07:25 AM

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:24 pm, said:

let's ask him the question - obviously I don't have any technical grounds to convince you - I assume the writer of that webpage can clarify matters for us.

so let's send him an email -

In light of the current trends in recording where CD audio levels are pushed to clipping, will playing the CD harm the amplifier or speakers? Essentially, when the amplifier is fed with a clipped signal.

Yes, that would be a good question to ask. And I'm sure it doesn't matter to the speakers where the waveform is generated, once again. Maybe you could throw something together?

[SiriuslyCold]

MatsP, on 10/08/08 11:25 pm, said:

Yes, that would be a good question to ask. And I'm sure it doesn't matter to the speakers where the waveform is generated, once again. Maybe you could throw something together?

I'd just send him what I wrote there.... I notice there are a couple of doctors on here (!) ... are they any engineers who can answer this question?

This post has been edited by SiriuslyCold: Oct 08 08 - 07:30 AM

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:29 pm, said:

I'd just send him what I wrote there....

Ok.

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/08/08 04:29 pm, said:

I'd just send him what I wrote there.... I notice there are a couple of doctors on here (!) ... are they any engineers who can answer this question?

Just want to add that I've found posts on the net about synthesizer generated square waves being bad for speakers too, so I'm not alone. We'll see what he says.

[redthahat]

MatsP, on 10/09/08 01:33 am, said:

Just want to add that I've found posts on the net about synthesizer generated square waves being bad for speakers too, so I'm not alone. We'll see what he says.

all I know is that after cranking DM for the last few weeks, my car stereo aint sounding its best anymore....

[MatsP]

redthahat, on 10/08/08 04:35 pm, said:

all I know is that after cranking DM for the last few weeks, my car stereo aint sounding its best anymore....

Might be due to the clipping, might not. But one thing I know is that clipping isn't good for the equipment.

[redthahat]

MatsP, on 10/09/08 01:36 am, said:

Might be due to the clipping, might not. But one thing I know is that clipping isn't good for the equipment.

True word that I have got is that standard speakers, it can affect. Like, in my case, I'm running 2x4" in the front with 2x6"s in the doors and 6x9"s in the back with a 200w 12" sub in the boot. It has affected both the 4"s and one of the 6"s, but not the others.

From what I have read, subs arent affected, just speakers that give off mids and highs.

[MatsP]

redthahat, on 10/08/08 04:39 pm, said:

True word that I have got is that standard speakers, it can affect. Like, in my case, I'm running 2x4" in the front with 2x6"s in the doors and 6x9"s in the back with a 200w 12" sub in the boot. It has affected both the 4"s and one of the 6"s, but not the others.

From what I have read, subs arent affected, just speakers that give off mids and highs.

Yeah, same here. During clipping the power spectrum will be shifted upwards in frequency, resulting in that nasal edgy sound.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 08 08 - 07:43 AM

[redthahat]

Another interesting thing that I have just come across is that Opeth's new record, Watershed, it is brickwalled like crazy, however, it just does not clip. Even in Audacity, it shows no clipping at all. I'm off to bed, but tomorrow, I will probably post a few screens of this. Seems as though they brickwalled it, then pulled it back a notch. Maybe this is where Metallica went wrong with DM... Like, it seems as though they pulled is back by a bee's dick, and that's about it, but it sounds amazing! Even from a band I just can not get into!!

[redthahat]

before I go get sleep, I have had a closer look at Down From The Sky. It does appear that although it has been pushed to the limit, not too far over, the only thing that it making it clip is the snare, and the odd occational clip. Considering they are both already compressed to the hilt, this is probably why this track still sounds so damn good.