[MatsP]

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 10:33 am, said:

Just for the record:

Distortion doesn't damage speakers. Playing music too loud damages speakers. However distortion is often a sign that the amp or speakers are being pushed too hard. Distortion in the music itself is harmless unless you play it too loud for the amp or speakers.

Ian

The distortion caused by clipping, or overloading an amp (same type of distortion), damages speakers. Read the following:

http://stason.org/TU...peakers-RK.html

The distortion makes the amps and speakers work harder than normal at a given sound level.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 03 08 - 01:40 AM

[Heavymaskinen]

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 01:33 am, said:

Just for the record:

Distortion doesn't damage speakers. Playing music too loud damages speakers. However distortion is often a sign that the amp or speakers are being pushed too hard. Distortion in the music itself is harmless unless you play it too loud for the amp or speakers.

Ian

But the fact that the sound pushes 100% nearly all the time, should be punishing for the speaker-membrane (as far as I've heard)?

[MatsP]

Heavymaskinen, on 10/03/08 10:42 am, said:

But the fact that the sound pushes 100% nearly all the time, should be punishing for the speaker-membrane (as far as I've heard)?

That's exactly the case. And over longer periods of time, as well. Well, that's what you said, sorry :wink:

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 03 08 - 01:47 AM

[SiriuslyCold]

Cigo, another very good article

Interview with Steve Hoffman



-----------------------------------

MatsP, on 10/03/08 05:42 pm, said:

That's exactly the case.

there is a difference though

when the clipping is embedded in the signal, it won't hurt the speakers if you do not push the volume up.

amplifier clipping can happen even when the clipping isn't in the signal, for example, when you are listening to something at a loud volume, and the music goes to a crescendo or a loud sound happens, this could cause your amplifier to run out of power, and instead of sending the full audio signal to the speaker, clip the signal at its max power. This is what usually causes speakers to fry.

This post has been edited by SiriuslyCold: Oct 03 08 - 01:51 AM

[MatsP]

SiriuslyCold, on 10/03/08 10:49 am, said:

there is a difference though

when the clipping is embedded in the signal, it won't hurt the speakers if you do not push the volume up.

amplifier clipping can happen even when the clipping isn't in the signal, for example, when you are listening to something at a loud volume, and the music goes to a crescendo or a loud sound happens, this could cause your amplifier to run out of power, and instead of sending the full audio signal to the speaker, clip the signal at its max power. This is what usually causes speakers to fry.

Yes, but it's the same type of clipped-off square-resembling signal. And it can be harmful even at lower volumes, since the load will be more or less constant with such a signal.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 03 08 - 02:00 AM

[Rhorschack]

Anyone already mentionned the TurnMeUp website ?

There's a lot of useful informations concerning the Loudness War.

This post has been edited by Rhorschack: Oct 03 08 - 02:05 AM

[ianshepherd]

Sorry, the last thing I want to do is take away your ammunition, but SiriuslyCold is correct - if you re-read the article you quoted, it consistently says "when you clip the amp hard". This means overdriving the amp which only happens when the music is being played too loud for the speakers, or where there is an impedance mismatch.

I suppose heavily clipped music might be more damaging than a clean signal, but you still need to be pushing the amp and/or speakers harder than they are designed for.

Here's a much more detailed discussion:

http://www.monsterca..._Some_Facts.pdf

I would avoid this issue - you risk side-tracking the conversation. Stick to the basics:

- It's distorted and sounds bad, even compared to other seriously aggressive metal CDs (like Machine Head's "The Blackening")
- It's pointlessly high-level, so much so that it sounds worse (and quieter) on the radio, and even on cheap equipment
- The crushed dynamic range reduces it's impact and STOPS it from "popping out of the speakers"
- It's tiring and hard to listen to
- Hardly anybody has anything good to say about it, not even the mastering engineer !
- It has generated an unprecedented number of complaints

Damage to ears and/or speakers is a red herring, IMO.

Ian

This post has been edited by ianshepherd: Oct 03 08 - 02:08 AM

[MatsP]

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 11:05 am, said:

Sorry, the last thing I want to do is take away your ammunition, but SiriuslyCold is correct - if you re-read the article you quoted, it consistently says "when you clip the amp hard". This means overdriving the amp which only happens when the music is being played too loud for the speakers, or where there is an impedance mismatch.

I suppose heavily clipped music might be more damaging than a clean signal, but you still need to be pushing the amp and/or speakers harder than they are designed for.

Here's a much more detailed discussion:

http://www.monsterca..._Some_Facts.pdf

I would avoid this issue - you risk side-tracking the conversation. Stick to the basics:

- It's distorted and sounds bad, even compared to other seriously aggressive metal CDs (like Machine Head's "The Blackening")
- It's pointlessly high-level, so much so that it sounds worse (and quieter) on the radio, and even on cheap equipment
- The crushed dynamic range reduces it's impact and STOPS it from "popping out of the speakers"
- It's tiring and hard to listen to
- Hardly anybody has anything good to say about it, not even the mastering engineer !
- It has generated an unprecedented number of complaints

Damage to ears and/or speakers is a red herring, IMO.

Ian

No square-shaped signal is good either for your ears, amps or speakers. That's my final word on it.

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 03 08 - 02:12 AM

[SiriuslyCold]

This is such an important article I feel the need to repost it on its own

Interview with Steve Hoffman

Metro Times: What’s your biggest complaint about modern mastering techniques?

Steve Hoffman: The music is mastered too loud. The engineers and producers are so concerned with their release being as loud as possible they forget that in order for something to actually sound loud it has to have some quiet parts in it! "All loud all the time" basically has the effect of making everything sound quiet.

full interview

[EvilBob]

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 08:05 pm, said:

Damage to ears and/or speakers is a red herring, IMO.

I must say, the 'clipping damages your speakers' thing sounded a bit dubious to me too. But while we can't say it actually damages your ears or speakers, I think it giving you a headache and making you want to turn it off is a physical effect it does cause!
BTW Ian, I hope it's ok if I use your image as my avatar - I loved it! Say the word in a PM if it's not and I'll remove it.



My Sig.

This post has been edited by EvilBob: Oct 03 08 - 02:28 AM

[SiriuslyCold]

THIS IS OFF TOPIC

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 06:05 pm, said:

Damage to ears and/or speakers is a red herring, IMO.

agreed.

EvilBob, on 10/03/08 06:19 pm, said:

I must say, the 'clipping damages your speakers' thing sounded a bit dubious to me too. But while we can't say it actually damages your ears or speakers, I think it giving you a headache and making you want to turn it off is a physical effect it does cause!

If you are really really curious, and sufficiently masochistic ... http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm

[abbeyroad2]

thetonto, on 10/03/08 08:09 am, said:

Because it's like getting a painter to repaint a painting, right?

I've heard this argument a few times now. The only way I could explain it would be like taking that painter's painting and taking a picture of it and hanging that picture in the art gallery while trying to pass it off as the greatest version of that painting. I believe we are only seeing a picture of a painting with DM and not the actual artist's rendition.

[Whittmeister]

MatsP, on 10/03/08 04:35 am, said:

The distortion caused by clipping, or overloading an amp (same type of distortion), damages speakers. Read the following:

http://stason.org/TU...peakers-RK.html

The distortion makes the amps and speakers work harder than normal at a given sound level.

I think folks are getting their "clipping" confused. The type of clipping that damages amps is not the digital clipping being referred to on DM. Amp clipping is when the amp is pushed past it's power limit. That is not caused by CD data clipping per se. It's caused by pushing the master volume of the amp too far. It also happens (much more easily I might add) when your driving speakers that have a lower impedance than what the amp is rated for.

[Whittmeister]

ianshepherd, on 10/03/08 05:05 am, said:

Sorry, the last thing I want to do is take away your ammunition, but SiriuslyCold is correct - if you re-read the article you quoted, it consistently says "when you clip the amp hard". This means overdriving the amp which only happens when the music is being played too loud for the speakers, or where there is an impedance mismatch.

I suppose heavily clipped music might be more damaging than a clean signal, but you still need to be pushing the amp and/or speakers harder than they are designed for.

Here's a much more detailed discussion:

http://www.monsterca..._Some_Facts.pdf

I would avoid this issue - you risk side-tracking the conversation. Stick to the basics:

- It's distorted and sounds bad, even compared to other seriously aggressive metal CDs (like Machine Head's "The Blackening")
- It's pointlessly high-level, so much so that it sounds worse (and quieter) on the radio, and even on cheap equipment
- The crushed dynamic range reduces it's impact and STOPS it from "popping out of the speakers"
- It's tiring and hard to listen to
- Hardly anybody has anything good to say about it, not even the mastering engineer !
- It has generated an unprecedented number of complaints

Damage to ears and/or speakers is a red herring, IMO.

Ian

This man is correct. People are confusing amp clipping and digital clipping from CD's. They're two different things.

[MatsP]

Whittmeister, on 10/03/08 01:14 pm, said:

This man is correct. People are confusing amp clipping and digital clipping from CD's. They're two different things.

The signal looks about the same, and is as harmful in both cases.

[Whittmeister]

MatsP, on 10/03/08 07:19 am, said:

The signal looks about the same, and is as harmful in both cases.

What?

[MatsP]

Whittmeister, on 10/03/08 01:21 pm, said:

What?

Clipped-off and square-shaped. Causing lots of constant load on amps and speakers, regardless of volume.

[Reece]

Whittmeister, on 10/03/08 04:21 am, said:

What?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BRO!!! \M/\M/

[Reece]

Everything I feel about the matter is in my videos

Throw me some support fella's, this is about US not about ME lol

The new one http://www.youtube.c...OveI7RvQ&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.c...-dTyhpAc&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.c...D_WUuQ6s&fmt=18

Yes they're 'tongue in cheek' but they're promoting the other websites and 'the message' in their own retarded way and it's always good to have a laugh

[MatsP]

Reece, on 10/03/08 01:26 pm, said:

Everything I feel about the matter is in my videos

Throw me some support fella's, this is about US not about ME lol

The new one http://www.youtube.c...OveI7RvQ&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.c...-dTyhpAc&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.c...D_WUuQ6s&fmt=18

Yes they're 'tongue in cheek' but they're promoting the other websites and 'the message' in their own retarded way and it's always good to have a laugh

We're having a serious discussion here! Just kidding, keep it up!

This post has been edited by MatsP: Oct 03 08 - 04:28 AM

[Whittmeister]

MatsP, on 10/03/08 07:23 am, said:

Clipped-off and square-shaped. Causing lots of constant load on amps and speakers, regardless of volume.

Yes. You've decribed a clipped digital signal. And it will ask more of an amp than a variant signal would. But a clipped digital signal will not inherently damage an amplifier, unless the volume is pushed. You can play the brickwalled DM CD all day long on your average amp and if you keep your volume at a reasonable level, the amp will not come anywhere near clipping itself. Will DM require more of your amp than a more dynamic, less brickwalled CD? Yes. But it will not by definition damage the amp simply because of the wave form. The main difference is that you don't have to push the volume as far to approach clipping with DM as you would with a more dynamic CD that has variant waveforms.

[Whittmeister]

Reece, on 10/03/08 07:23 am, said:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BRO!!! \M/\M/

Why thank you brother!!! : )

[MatsP]

Whittmeister, on 10/03/08 01:42 pm, said:

Yes. You've decribed a clipped digital signal. And it will ask more of an amp than a variant signal would. But a clipped digital signal will not inherently damage an amplifier, unless the volume is pushed. You can play the brickwalled DM CD all day long on your average amp and if you keep your volume at a reasonable level, the amp will not come anywhere near clipping itself. Will DM require more of your amp than a more dynamic, less brickwalled CD? Yes. But it will not by definition damage the amp simply because of the wave form. The main difference is that you don't have to push the volume as far to approach clipping with DM as you would with a more dynamic CD that has variant waveforms.

You are right, but it will be more damaging at a given sound level, because of the constant load on the equipment. That was more or less everything that I wanted to point out.

[Whittmeister]

MatsP, on 10/03/08 07:46 am, said:

You are right, but it will be more damaging at a given sound level, because of the constant load on the equipment. That was more or less everything that I wanted to point out.

Then we agree. But I still think people around here are confused on the meaning of "clipping" and its various contexts.

[MatsP]

Whittmeister, on 10/03/08 01:50 pm, said:

Then we agree. But I still think people around here are confused on the meaning of "clipping" and its various contexts.

I guess so.