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The loudness war Metallica another huge victim of the loudness war
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#177
metfan2174 
Posted Aug 27 08 - 05:52 AM
All the other Metallica CDs sound perfect I think. The Black Album sounds the best. I got it on DVD audio and it's one of the best sounding albums I've ever heard. So I think they will get the sound right on the CD.
#179
SirCanealot
Posted Aug 27 08 - 08:26 AM
Whittmeister, on 08/27/08 11:24 am, said:
Again, these are just ripped digital files provided for download and streaming purposes. You can't possibly assume from that, that the 16 bit Redbook version will be a digital clipfest. Come on. After the production nightmare that was St. Anger, and with the involvement of Rick Rubin in this project, I strongly doubt that the mastering quality of the final product will be subpar.
I've explained this several times in the topic already. The version of My Apocalypse I have was compressed from a clean source to a high quality VBR codec. Mp3 compression doesn't remove insane amounts of dynamic range from a recording (yes, it does remove some, but it won't turn a recording full of dynamics into a brick wall limited one).
All of Rick Rubin's recent projects have been brickwall limited to death. The mastering quality of this album will be fine; it's just that, like 99% of other modern albums, it will be brickwalled to death.
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Mastering levels aren't the only problem with listening discomfort. The most popular digital media that are the accepted standards today (MP3 and 16 bit redbook) are the primary culprits IMO............
Blah, blah, blah. Listening discomfort is caused by listening fatigue, and listening fatigue is often called by listening to brickwall limited albums, as they are a wall of noise and do not give the ear any time to rest.
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And MP3's. Don't get me started on what complete shit those files are. People say they can't hear the difference between them and a decent CD. Well I guess if all you ever use are PC speakers and earbuds, you won't. But I can pick out a compressed hunk of MP3 crap from a continent away and so can thousands of others. The music sounds thin and crushed as soon as you start compressing it to death.
I've been involved in digital video and audio for years; I know what mp3 encoding does to a file. And most of the files on my audio player are OGG VORBIS; I don't like mp3 either. But I still know what it does to a file. If you take a clean sounding audio file and compress it using a high-quality mp3 encoder (eg, LAME, which isn't really an mp3 encoding anyway, is it? :P), it WILL sound decent. However, anything else than LAME, forget it. Yes, I can spot the difference between LAME V0 and CD. It still sounds pretty good though, by far the most you can do with Mp3.
Anyway, all of the stuff you've posted has nothing to do with anything. Sure CDs are not perfect, but they have PLENTY of dynamic range to work with. Why are we having our albums turned from decent-sounding CDs into brickwall limited crapfests? THAT is the main issue; not the mp3 encoding or the problems with CD.
YES, the CD will sound better than the mp3s already out, but I'd bet someone $100 right now it will run up -5dbfs (maybe -6 if we're lucky? :P)
The Black Album was a very full sounding mix than was done at around -12dbfs. It can be done; it's not hard.
#180
Starchild
Posted Aug 27 08 - 08:39 AM
SirCanealot, on 08/27/08 08:56 pm, said:
I've explained this several times in the topic already. The version of My Apocalypse I have was compressed from a clean source to a high quality VBR codec. Mp3 compression doesn't remove insane amounts of dynamic range from a recording (yes, it does remove some, but it won't turn a recording full of dynamics into a brick wall limited one).
All of Rick Rubin's recent projects have been brickwall limited to death. The mastering quality of this album will be fine; it's just that, like 99% of other modern albums, it will be brickwalled to death.
Blah, blah, blah. Listening discomfort is caused by listening fatigue, and listening fatigue is often called by listening to brickwall limited albums, as they are a wall of noise and do not give the ear any time to rest.
I've been involved in digital video and audio for years; I know what mp3 encoding does to a file. And most of the files on my audio player are OGG VORBIS; I don't like mp3 either. But I still know what it does to a file. If you take a clean sounding audio file and compress it using a high-quality mp3 encoder (eg, LAME, which isn't really an mp3 encoding anyway, is it? :P), it WILL sound decent. However, anything else than LAME, forget it. Yes, I can spot the difference between LAME V0 and CD. It still sounds pretty good though, by far the most you can do with Mp3.
Anyway, all of the stuff you've posted has nothing to do with anything. Sure CDs are not perfect, but they have PLENTY of dynamic range to work with. Why are we having our albums turned from decent-sounding CDs into brickwall limited crapfests? THAT is the main issue; not the mp3 encoding or the problems with CD.
YES, the CD will sound better than the mp3s already out, but I'd bet someone $100 right now it will run up -5dbfs (maybe -6 if we're lucky? :P)
The Black Album was a very full sounding mix than was done at around -12dbfs. It can be done; it's not hard.
All of Rick Rubin's recent projects have been brickwall limited to death. The mastering quality of this album will be fine; it's just that, like 99% of other modern albums, it will be brickwalled to death.
Blah, blah, blah. Listening discomfort is caused by listening fatigue, and listening fatigue is often called by listening to brickwall limited albums, as they are a wall of noise and do not give the ear any time to rest.
I've been involved in digital video and audio for years; I know what mp3 encoding does to a file. And most of the files on my audio player are OGG VORBIS; I don't like mp3 either. But I still know what it does to a file. If you take a clean sounding audio file and compress it using a high-quality mp3 encoder (eg, LAME, which isn't really an mp3 encoding anyway, is it? :P), it WILL sound decent. However, anything else than LAME, forget it. Yes, I can spot the difference between LAME V0 and CD. It still sounds pretty good though, by far the most you can do with Mp3.
Anyway, all of the stuff you've posted has nothing to do with anything. Sure CDs are not perfect, but they have PLENTY of dynamic range to work with. Why are we having our albums turned from decent-sounding CDs into brickwall limited crapfests? THAT is the main issue; not the mp3 encoding or the problems with CD.
YES, the CD will sound better than the mp3s already out, but I'd bet someone $100 right now it will run up -5dbfs (maybe -6 if we're lucky? :P)
The Black Album was a very full sounding mix than was done at around -12dbfs. It can be done; it's not hard.
Excellent post. :up:
#181
Santos
Posted Aug 27 08 - 08:44 AM
Keeper of the Flames, on 08/26/08 07:18 am, said:
Holy shit!!!!! Just sit back and enjoy the ride or get the fuck out. Volume levels? Its fucking Metallica!!!!! It is supposed to be played loud you moron. The loudness war is just fine for me. Quit being so analytical and jump on the Metallica train that will take us yet into another direction......always has, always will. All the songs I have heard so far from Death Magnetic, kick major ass. As long as I know that, that is all that matters. Cheers.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You're arguing against quality in your listening experience. You want it loud, you can turn the volume up, it would sound fuller and you'd like it more, whether you had a good ear for these things or not.
#183
Annihilation
Posted Aug 27 08 - 10:04 AM
Reverberocket, on 08/27/08 04:56 am, said:
Auditioning for the Philharmonic is a little different though. You're not being hired to be creative. You're being hired to play it EXACTLY THE WAY ITS WRITTEN ON YOUR LIL PAPER or you're gone.
Metallica could've theoretically chosen to have thier songs in the red. There are bands like the Stooges and Guitar Wolf who have absolutely ear splitting feedback throughout thier albums. I don't think Metallica did this, but let's keep in mind, this is the band who allowed both St. Anger and And Justice for All to be released with some highly questionable and totally intentional production choices.
Metallica could've theoretically chosen to have thier songs in the red. There are bands like the Stooges and Guitar Wolf who have absolutely ear splitting feedback throughout thier albums. I don't think Metallica did this, but let's keep in mind, this is the band who allowed both St. Anger and And Justice for All to be released with some highly questionable and totally intentional production choices.
Are you incapable of reading? I adressed those issues in my post.
#185
raphamj
Posted Aug 27 08 - 10:25 AM
Wakers, on 08/27/08 09:04 pm, said:
^ No. Digital Clipping cannot appear on an LP, as they are analogue.
It will be distorted in some way, but from what i've read, it can actually make an album sound warmer.
The vinyls have to have different mastering all the same though.
It will be distorted in some way, but from what i've read, it can actually make an album sound warmer.
The vinyls have to have different mastering all the same though.
Well... that's great news. It will be awesome if we can get a LP version ripped to mp3.
#186
jtsuth
Posted Aug 27 08 - 10:28 AM
The only thing that concerns me is the fact that the heads have seen a butt-fucking monkey-load of people freaking out about it and they haven't made any attempts (besides the MM guy sending an email which solves nothing) to publicly address and remedy the situation. It actually makes me a bit irritated that they haven't addressed it yet. Just say, yes, this is the way we make music now or no, we understand that clipping is a fucking retarded and shitty sounding thing and our album DEATH MAGNETIC will not sound like that. It is masterfully mixed and you will all be very pleased. Say it already goddammit. As Hetfield would say 'SPIT IT OUT!!!'
#192
jtsuth
Posted Aug 27 08 - 10:54 AM
SirCanealot, on 08/26/08 08:06 am, said:
Why 99% of modern bands seem to feel the need to destroy their music this way, I do not know. Especially a band like Metallica that went through so much trouble to sound good with The Black Album. Would Metallica sell less albums if they mastered their CD at sane volume levels? I think not.
It's not Metallica doing it. If this happens to be the case it will be their label. WARNER. and I hear they are douche bags about this kind of LOUDER IS BETTER approach so we're gonna be really pissed off soon I think.
#194
MoreMetallica
Posted Aug 27 08 - 11:25 AM
omg, I have a question, but please don't think I'm stupid. My dad listens to Metallica a lot. He has a CD player but in his vehicle he only has a cassette player (old vehicle) He takes his CD's and records from them to cassettes to listen to in his rig. He says that when he does that, he plays the CD at a lower volume so that it doesn't sound distorted on the cassette and so that he can turn up the volume more if he needs to. Is that kind of the same thing as what is referred to in the loudness wars? I know absolutely nothing about sound distortion or clipping or any of that stuff everyone is complaining about. Just curious 2 know, or if my dad is an idiot. p.s. i am a girl, so go easy on the harsh comments
#195
Wakers
Posted Aug 27 08 - 11:28 AM
MoreMetallica, on 08/27/08 07:25 pm, said:
omg, I have a question, but please don't think I'm stupid. My dad listens to Metallica a lot. He has a CD player but in his vehicle he only has a cassette player (old vehicle) He takes his CD's and records from them to cassettes to listen to in his rig. He says that when he does that, he plays the CD at a lower volume so that it doesn't sound distorted on the cassette and so that he can turn up the volume more if he needs to. Is that kind of the same thing as what is referred to in the loudness wars? I know absolutely nothing about sound distortion or clipping or any of that stuff everyone is complaining about. Just curious 2 know, or if my dad is an idiot. p.s. i am a girl, so go easy on the harsh comments
Sort of. I used to do that way back when i still had a cassette walkman. Recording a cd at normal volume could sound really shitty on the tapes.
If you convert a track straight from pro-tools format into an mp3, yes, it will sound absolutely fucked. (or so i've been told, I don't know that myself, but more knowledgeable people have said that).
#196
mikemelancholic
Posted Aug 27 08 - 11:54 AM
I think a lot of people on this board just can't grasp the concept of what the "loudness wars" is. A lot of great albums have been ruined because of this phenomenon. I just hope that DM isn't one of them. Kudos to the OP.
#197
SirCanealot
Posted Aug 27 08 - 12:47 PM
It seems as though the wikipedia page on this issue has been updated and expanded recently :)
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Loudness_war
It's really pleasing to see so much backlash on this issue -- I was hoping such a landmark release would attract as much attention as this. As I've said, all we can do is raise awareness on this issue.
The only problem is I'm 99% sure the band are going to try and sweep this under the carpet and ignore the issue. I'll be 100% suprised if Lars has the balls to talk about it, that's for sure...
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Loudness_war
It's really pleasing to see so much backlash on this issue -- I was hoping such a landmark release would attract as much attention as this. As I've said, all we can do is raise awareness on this issue.
The only problem is I'm 99% sure the band are going to try and sweep this under the carpet and ignore the issue. I'll be 100% suprised if Lars has the balls to talk about it, that's for sure...
#198
dethmosh
Posted Aug 27 08 - 01:30 PM
Wakers, on 08/27/08 01:04 pm, said:
^ No. Digital Clipping cannot appear on an LP, as they are analogue.
It will be distorted in some way, but from what i've read, it can actually make an album sound warmer.
The vinyls have to have different mastering all the same though.
It will be distorted in some way, but from what i've read, it can actually make an album sound warmer.
The vinyls have to have different mastering all the same though.
So are you saying that they recorded DM in analog? Last I checked they were using the computer for their editing which is digital.
#199
Wakers
Posted Aug 27 08 - 01:33 PM
dethmosh, on 08/27/08 09:30 pm, said:
So are you saying that they recorded DM in analog? Last I checked they were using the computer for their editing which is digital.
No..
You cannot put digital data onto an analogue format (vinyl).
Analogue format cannot suffer from digital clipping, but it can still be distorted to some degree (although again, it may not actually make the album sound worse).
#200
dethmosh
Posted Aug 27 08 - 02:11 PM
Wakers, on 08/27/08 04:33 pm, said:
No..
You cannot put digital data onto an analogue format (vinyl).
Analogue format cannot suffer from digital clipping, but it can still be distorted to some degree (although again, it may not actually make the album sound worse).
You cannot put digital data onto an analogue format (vinyl).
Analogue format cannot suffer from digital clipping, but it can still be distorted to some degree (although again, it may not actually make the album sound worse).
OK then so why should I buy DM on vinyl when it is essentially the same?